Comments on A Practical Wedding: Please Discuss.

Sadly, I'm shutting comments on this. We're going ...

2009-11-25T09:52:56.802-08:00

Sadly, I'm shutting comments on this. We're going to have to find a way to talk about being wives without fighting about if Stay At Home Moms or Working Moms are better. Because you know what? BOTH ARE GREAT. The kind of motherhood that works for you is up to you and your partner to figure out. The point is what kind of people we are and what kind of wives we want to be.

Being a wife is a different thing from being a mother. And that's the whole point.

I will probably do a post reminding everyone of this, but I will not host these discussions unless we're both civial and respectful. Not just fighting to be right.

Nat, well, I do think we really do disagee. I sho...

2009-11-25T08:50:43.167-08:00

Nat, well, I do think we really do disagee.

I should have included in my post that most married women in the 1800's still didn't work outside the home back then, dream job or not.

The ones working outside the home were usually single.

If you look at the web site I posted, once a woman was married, if she still needed to earn money, she did it from home - having a cottage industry on the side or taking in boarders.

Back then, most families produced a lot of their own goods and sold the excess, and married women were very involved with that.

So they were still home to hold their children's hand. There really were very few married women with children working outside the home. They were able to work at their cottage industries and still be home to supervise their children.

Interestingly, whenever they have done studies on modern mothers, they often find that mothers with part-time jobs are happier than mothers with no jobs or mothers with full-time jobs.

Perhaps the ones with part-time jobs really do achieve that elusive balance we all want.

@Nat Indeed. David and I were discussing exactly t...

2009-11-25T07:16:17.504-08:00

@Nat
Indeed. David and I were discussing exactly that last night. We were also discussing how no one would ever imply that a man should/would/will want to give up his dreams and goals (whatever they are) when he has kids. In fact, since he's often expected to be the bread winner, he better *not* give up his dreams and goals, says society. But that's routinely the implication with woman. "Oh, you just don't know, once you have a baby they will be your everything." When historically they were *not* your everything. For most of history people had children A) because they didn't have a choice and B) for economic and survival reasons (an extra hand on the farm, someone to support you when you are old). That does not mean these children were not loved (of course they were) but they were not expected to be anyone's everything. And I would argue that is good for kids and parents, who both need to be self sufficient.

And finally, another thing we discussed last night is that somehow there is this idea that you have to choose between your children and your dreams - one has to be first. And if you pick your dreams, that means you won't meet your children's needs. But really, they are, and should be, two different spheres of your life. You have your kids, you love them, you take care of them, they are very very very important to you. Then, separately, you have your dreams and your goals, and that's an important part of who you are too. We don't do our kids a favor when we make less of ourselves. Our kids need our fullest, richest deepest selves, and that means ourselves with dreams and passions. They need roll models, not hovering parents (and NO, that doesn't mean I'm against staying at home with your kids. AT ALL. You can be a stay at home mom with rich dreams and goals, and a hovering working parent with none).

Now, that's a lot of talk about parenting for a non parenting blog, and a post not about parenting. It makes me a bit sad that this is still such a loaded issue for women that we can't even talk about being a wife without talking about being a mother, and have to fight for the idea of being allowed to still be ourselves. Sigh.

i think it rests on the evil fairytales we tell li...

2009-11-25T05:26:40.035-08:00

i think it rests on the evil fairytales we tell little girls (and eventually, the cheesy chick flicks we spoon-feed to big girls).

the goal of life is to catch a man. it's the end-all, be-all.

if you see the wedding this way... as the prime goal of existence, the happy ending before the credits... of course you'll overemphasize the day, and then let yourself fall apart thereafter. you've achieved your goal. you have no reason to take care of yourself, no subsequent dreams to pursue.

the truth is we need to acknowledge that becoming a mother requires a certain amount of self-sacrifice. but there are limits, and should be parameters. getting the kids ready in the morning is going to be a bigger priority than spending that extra time on your hair.

but how do you want to impact your children, and in turn, society?

i want any little girls i may have to grow up knowing that they can be attractive and put effort into the way they look, and still be intelligent, successful, professional, as well as compassionate, sacrificial and so on. i want them to know that a wedding isn't THE dream, but the beginning of a long succession of dreams and goals made easier (not inhibited!) by having a loving partner and family.

that will be part of my "self-sacrifice."

- a women's studies teacher

Anon, I'm not sure we do disagree, my point was no...

2009-11-25T01:45:43.021-08:00

Anon, I'm not sure we do disagree, my point was not that women back then had dream jobs etc, just that they weren't stay at home mums. I agree that the women working outside the home (even in their own fields) were working class, but my understanding was that pre-industrialization most people fell into that category.

Anyway history aside the fact remains that children have grown and prospered for the majority of history without having mummy to hold their hand all day, without the helicopter parenting. Luckily thanks to lots of amazing women, we're now able to pursue any job we want. Definitely an improvement on 200 years ago. On the flip side though now were guilt-tripped into thinking we're neglecting our children by taking up those opportunities. I think that's crap.

Hmmm. Disagree. The women who had to work outsid...

2009-11-24T23:00:04.659-08:00

Hmmm. Disagree. The women who had to work outside the home 200 years ago (1809) were mostly working class/poor and worked as servants or factory jobs.

It wasn't until the end of the 1800s that middle-class single women began taking jobs as shop clerks and such.

Of course, I'm being overly simple here.

This is interesting info about women working in the 19th century -

http://www.answers.com/topic/women-and-the-work-force

As always Meg, you've made an interesting point an...

2009-11-24T21:20:48.217-08:00

As always Meg, you've made an interesting point and I think what Lauren said particularly strikes a chord with me as a very creative person in a non-creative role.

One comment I'd like to respond to though was made by Vanessa:
"She'd rather spend her time/enegry/money on her kids & husband, making sure they're cared for first. And I dont think its a conscious effort at all. Its instinct. Most animals will go cold or hungry before they let their children suffer.
This image of motherhood is a big part of the problem. Not spending "her time/enegry/money on her kids & husband, making sure they're cared for first", is NOT tantamount to a woman letting her child go hungry. Like Peonies, I think this idea of perfection, particularly in motherhood, is scary and wrong. I agree that it's instinctual to want your children to survive, I don't think it's instinct that tells us that a $1500 pram is more important than personal training sessions...

If you look back over the history of humans, the idea of a stay-at-home, every-minute-of-the-day-watching-the-child mother is a short lived priveledged role. Step back a couple of hundred years and the only women who could afford not to work were rich enough not to have to care for their own children. Go back another few hundred and tribal societies saw women go out and work while the oldies looked after the kids.

Somewhere in the very recent past someone decided that children are neglected unless they have their own bedroom complete with PC, DVD, playstation and a mummy at their disposal 24/7. Sounds to me like the perfect way to breed a generation of narcisists...

While I definitely think that there is a connectio...

2009-11-24T19:59:41.418-08:00

While I definitely think that there is a connection between the ideas of your wedding day being the best day of your life and wives/mothers putting everyone before themselves, what I wonder is how they came to be connected. It seems like the pressure for married women to put their husbands and children before themselves has been around forever, while the pressure for weddings to be like a fairy tale come true is much more recent. Where did this idea that your wedding is the best day of your life start? And isn't it kind of weird that this pressure has evolved in a time when the feminist movement has made such strides toward equality for women? I'm just thinking outloud here and have no idea if there is any real correlation between the feminist movement and the development of the concept that women must be princess-esque on their wedding days, but I think this is a really interesting topic and I hope we explore it more!

I never made that connection consciously before, b...

2009-11-24T19:47:25.162-08:00

I never made that connection consciously before, but it makes sense. At times, I definitely feel the weight of the expectation that my whole life is in a slow decline now that I'm married. I worry (irrationally) that I won't be able to pursue my esoteric interests with as much passion or zeal as I did when I was "single." Then I remember that I wouldn't have married my husband if I had had to give up my passions in the process.

I'm not sure, on the whole, many people getting married give a lot of thought to what they really want their marriage (or their wedding) to be. I think it is easier, *in the short-term*, to accept the societal idea of marriage than to tear it down and build your own marriage from scratch. Or perhaps you resign yourself to the ball-and-chain mentality to keep from taking responsibility for not living your passions.

Just some thoughts...

@Carrie Exactly. I couldn't have said it better my...

2009-11-24T17:27:10.202-08:00

@Carrie
Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

@T-Bone
Indeed. Indeed.

ALL I WANT IS A KICK ASS EFFIN PARTY!!!

2009-11-24T17:07:18.481-08:00

ALL I WANT IS A KICK ASS EFFIN PARTY!!!

Yeah, the "last hurrah" idea resonates with a lot ...

2009-11-24T16:26:57.248-08:00

Yeah, the "last hurrah" idea resonates with a lot of what I've seen in the WIC. I also like what Abby-Wan Kenobi said about the goal of Getting A Husband being historically a woman's goal.

Or rather, I think those ideas are factors in the Big Day story, but not the only factors. I think it's also true, like other commenters have said, that people will grab at an excuse to have a day All About Them, and that it's an opportunity to be creative that many people don't have elsewhere.

I also think that weddings are frequently about the families showing off, or negotiating a place in their social groups. Several members of my family were much more into the Big Day idea than I was, and I think at least part of that was because they felt my wedding reflected very strongly on them. In a way, my wedding day was a culmination and celebration of how they raised me and about the trajectory of the family moving into the future. Me looking awesome in front of 100 people wasn't about me, it was me as a symbol of the family.

Meg- I really admire you and the way you write and...

2009-11-24T16:14:11.059-08:00

Meg- I really admire you and the way you write and allow for all view points and opinions and ways of life.....it is starting to seem to me at times, though, that some of the women commenting feel the need to buck the system just to prove they are not falling in line with that society dictates....and by telling other women that they are less than for wanting something traditional can be just as alienating....it's all such a delicate balance..especially when discussing marriage and what that means to our sense of identity. It also bums me out to read comments from people about how the ceremony doesn't matter to them or they could care less about getting married because eff the system!

I DO care about having a nice wedding...because I want to share that moment with our friends and family...and for me the ceremony is the most important part! That's the whole point!!! Well...and a kick ass dance party!

I do think there's something to this. It's like t...

2009-11-24T16:02:58.846-08:00

I do think there's something to this. It's like the last ball, the last hurrah, after which you have to live for others.

I also think there's something to the idea that getting married is the best thing any woman will ever do in her life, so it has to be a Big Huge Day. I remember a radio commercial for Lasik surgery, where a man talked about seeing his son's college graduation and his daughter's wedding. Those choices as heartstring-tugging events were really telling.

BTW, on the mom debate: neither SAHMs nor working outside the home moms are stereotypes. I've known moms of both kinds who still followed their dreams and passions in life -- and moms of both kinds who didn't. (Having a job doesn't necessarily mean it's your true calling.)

My own mother stayed at home sometimes and worked outside the home at other times, but she was always a great mom precisely because she was herself as well as being my mom, whether she was at home with us full time, going to school, or working. I can't predict where life will take me, but I hope I can be like her in that way.

Lisa Meg and all, maybe there is a reason for the ...

2009-11-24T15:00:53.212-08:00

Lisa Meg and all,
maybe there is a reason for the end of the fairytale... I mean, it might just be that women viscerally understand the importance of relationships much more than the average man does (and that's a fact, I think, and no news!). So for a man marriage couldn't possibly represent much because, as a general rule, he doesn't have the same drive toward relationships that a woman has (again as a general rule).
Many women - unfortunately - give in to stereotypes, on both sides of the fence, ie some chose to work while having kids in order not to be scolded if they don't, whereas others chose not to work even if they would like to because of their upbringing and another kind of pressure.
As a person about to get married AND as a WP I've never realized how many stereotypes wedding professional have... most of them (and they mostly are... women, surprise surprise!) have their idea of invitation, gown, reception, style and they try to impose it on you even when it doesn't feed their pocket. It's very curious that such kind of pressure can come from women....! And how about stereotyping the classical woman who isn't mamby pamby, who knows what she wants, who wants value for her money? Here it is, Bridezilla. NOBODY would call a man wanting the exact car he craves for, with all his list of optionals, but somehow women are stereotyped... and by other women... food for thought, don't you think?

By the way Meg, you are so graceful with your disc...

2009-11-24T14:49:31.820-08:00

By the way Meg, you are so graceful with your disclaimer after disclaimer. I wonder if feminism will always be such a minefield, or equality with men and equality with each other will one day be as accepted as 'the world is round'.

Empowerment and employment are obviously not interchangeable words. Empowerment is the ability to choose to be married or single, become a mother or not, work full time or run a household, or anything in between, and make these choices because they are what you desire. The next step in that evolution is to fight not to define other women using labels and generalizations. That's the goal, right? Accepting other women's choices as legitimate, whether we agree or not?

Yes Meg. I'm getting married in March. My grandm...

2009-11-24T14:26:55.169-08:00

Yes Meg.

I'm getting married in March. My grandmother (bless her heart) just told me that I'll 'be fat in five years'. I responded with something like 'Um Nana that's....mean... and a very general statement that is obviously made up'. She let me know, silly me, that its scientific fact that women grow fat within exactly five years of marriage. She studied it in college. Yes, this conversation really occured.

So according to my grandmother (and our culture, I do believe):

My wedding day is the first day of the rest of my fat, homely life. I better look cute now, and take lots of pictures to document my pre-childbearing hips.

So much agreement here! It makes me wonder also ab...

2009-11-24T13:57:34.947-08:00

So much agreement here! It makes me wonder also about all of the "women's stories" we are taught as girls which end with "and they got married and lived happily ever after." Rom coms, fairy tales, and most stories with a female lead have the wedding as the ending. Maybe the pressure is in part this is the end of your story as the "lead." From here on out you play a supporting role. (ew)

On the plus side, I must say that I find it empowering to think that I can do my own little part to end bridal-obsession by having a kick-ass life in marriage.

@colorofabsence (great name! ah!) I totally agree...

2009-11-24T13:55:02.928-08:00

@colorofabsence (great name! ah!)

I totally agree with most of what you're saying... and think it's interesting at that. But by "not give up your dreams" I don't mean "don't stay home with your kids." I keep saying, and saying, and saying, that I really have no particular bias one way or the other. I think women should be empowered to make a choice, and be able to *stay* empowered no matter what choice they make (and that is the bit I worry about, I think society works to strip women of power no matter what choice they make, by making them feel like the other choice was better). And I do think you can stay home with kids and *not* give up dreams. Of course!! So much of course I didn't even mention it.

I do think it's interesting how loaded this stay at home mom/ not stay at home mom thing is... even for a group of women who are mostly not mothers. It gets read into so many statements I make, where I'm not at all talking about it. And the perception is always that I am, for some reason, against staying home with your kids. Which I find particularly interesting since I'm leaning towards staying home... in some way or another... with projects on the side.... probably... but who knows?

Anyway. Just noting that this dichotomy seems to be one of the most weighted ones we have as women.

@Miss Fancy Pants
Having dreams and wanting kids can go hand in hand. That's the point exactly, you can have dreams and goals and that does not mean your kids are semi-desired, it means your kids are blessed. Because a parent with passions is a blessing.

@all
Of course your dreams *change* after you have kids, sillies. I din't even think I had to clarify that. But changing is different than no longer having. Really different.

I think there is SO much validity to your theory, ...

2009-11-24T13:13:23.581-08:00

I think there is SO much validity to your theory, Meg, but I also agree with whoever said that sometimes, your dreams change after you get married, and/or have kids. Not all of them, but probably some of them, and HOW they change is impossible to predict.

I have a girlfriend who has been incredibly hard-working and career-oriented for her entire life (well, after age 15, at least), and spent the bulk of her 20s carving out a path for herself. She was in a relationship the entire time, blazing onward, rising through the ranks, making more and more money with each passing year. They got married, and not much changed for several years in terms of her professional trajectory. Then, she got pregnant and she was adamant that her baby would not completely take over her life, or distract her from her personal goals, her marriage, or her friendships.

Then she gave birth, and she tried really, really hard to deliver on those promises. But slowly and surely, she's realized that her dreams have changed completely, in a way she never could have imagined before. She changed jobs, taking a pay cut, reduced responsibility and increased stability because it enables her to spend more time with her son. She opts out of girls' night every so often because it enables her to spend more time with her husband. And yes, they even bought a car that looks suspiciously like a mini-van. Not exactly, but pretty damn close!

Then again, her husband is a stay at home dad, they regularly travel abroad with an infant, and there's nary a mom-jean in sight.

My point is, she's not stupid, and she hasn't fallen prey to cultural norms and expectations. She's simply realized that her priorities have changed along with her circumstances in a way she never anticipated. Because she COULDN'T.

And that's OK, right? I mean, that's life - you live it and you make choices and those choices lead to more options, and in turn more choices, and so on and so on. You can plan and plan and plan, but you can't predict how things will turn out or how you will react to them.

I think people sometimes make the mistake of saying things like 'I know myself well enough to know XXX,' or 'There's no way that I will ever XXX' or any number of other things that really only serve to limit us; either our potential or our options or something else.

This is a tough one. The funny part for me is tha...

2009-11-24T13:10:04.399-08:00

This is a tough one. The funny part for me is that I never thought that my wedding day would be the happiest day of my life, but you know what, it WAS the happiest day of my life so far. I have never smiled so much or felt so loved and loving as I did that day surrounded by people I love. I hope that I can continue to draw on that feeling as I work on being the best wife possible to my husband while maintaining my self. Because it is work. Hard work. There is no room for being a princess here. I think that there will always be times when someone has to be put first, but I also believe that it can be done and that it is a very individual decision. I do wonder about the cultural thoughts on marriage. As a single woman in my late 20s, I got a lot of "poor you, you will find your prince, but isn't it nice that you have a great career, good for you" and the instant I was married my patients are ready for me to retire and have kids and I steel myself and say "I have worked to damn hard to get where I am to quit now..." I do wonder about kids and how they will fit in. I think that it is important for me to think that I don't have to give up my dreams, but I may have to give some of the time that I devote to them when I have kids.... But I also think that your kids can be part of that dream and dreams change...

And-The WIC can shove it. Seriously. They may be able to sell me a pretty dress, but they can't make me a princess!
-Meghan

I agree with the previous poster who said- "I thin...

2009-11-24T12:37:14.822-08:00

I agree with the previous poster who said- "I think the whole idea of a wedding being the best day of you life is an easy trap to fall into. And that, in order to be realistic, you need to realize that there will be days later on in life that may exceed how great you felt on your wedding day. If you're that lucky, of course. "

My wedding was beautiful, just as I imagined and yes- special.

It was chaotic though & busy- and to be honest- it was definitely a great day that i'll always remember but i can definitely say that there will be better days ahead :)

I enjoyed wedding planning just as much as the big day. I think looking back it wasnt just the one day that made it special - it was the entire year leading up to it.

I cherish everyday of planning leading up to it & I'll cherish every day I have in our marriage afterwards.

For me- like previous posters have said- the wedding gave me a creative outlet that I didnt have otherwise. I would be lying if I said that i didnt dream for the perfect wedding.

But in the end, its just 1 day. And in the end, its the marriage thats most important. And a marriage lasts a lifetime. So, in my eyes, I have a lifetime to celebrate!

I think the whole idea of a wedding being the best...

2009-11-24T12:14:46.267-08:00

I think the whole idea of a wedding being the best day of you life is an easy trap to fall into. And that, in order to be realistic, you need to realize that there will be days later on in life that may exceed how great you felt on your wedding day. If you're that lucky, of course.

I also think that if kids aren't part of your "dream" for your life, then you shouldn't have them. Obviously, having kids means having to sacrifice some things, but it shouldn't be ALL about the sacrifice. You should want them more than anything, really, or it's not worth bringing a semi-desired baby into the world.

my parents are divorced, and being young, the idea...

2009-11-24T12:10:39.619-08:00

my parents are divorced, and being young, the idea that i might actually marry the person i happened to be in a relationship honestly never occurred to me until he mentioned it. we had only been together for a little over a year, and i laughed it off as simply preposterous.

the next summer, he mentioned, on the way to a wedding, "maybe at this time next year, we'll be engaged." at that point, i knew that we were going to be together, and from that point, the idea of marriage became somewhat rooted in my brain. it was nice to have the security of knowing that you were going to be with someone.

we finally got engaged not the following summer, but the one after that. the idea had been in my head so long, that the WIC was finally started to strain on me, and i was like, "when is it going to happen already??"

i've enjoyed the wedding planning process. i'm trying to incorporate what i feel are the "necessary splurges" along with a healthy dose of reality and sanity! i do want the day to be a great one, a memorable one, and i want to look pretty and do all those girly things. however, i don't want to get so caught up in that that i forget the real meaning of the day, nor do i expect the day to be completely "perfect" or the best day of my life! i should hardly hope that at 25, there is nothing better yet to come! i see it more as like my coming out party - i'm finally at a point in my life where i'm comfortable with myself, and i want to proclaim my love to someone to everyone around me.

like so many other comments before me, I also thin...

2009-11-24T12:10:14.025-08:00

like so many other comments before me, I also think that "The Big Day" thing is linked to society's prescribed idea of what it means to be a wife. However, women have fought hard to have it all - kids, family, career, dreams. While it is all about balance, I have witnessed first hand how difficult that can be. I work with a lot of older women who have kids, and a family and a career and I can see how hard it is for so many of them to balance everything. You wake up at 6 in the morning and cook breakfast, wake the kids up, send them off to daycare of school and rush to work. You work a full 8 hour day (more often times) and pick up your kids after work, you go home and cook and do chores and take care of your family, and at the end of a day it sure feels like you've barely had any time for yourself - or even for you and your husband. So many couples I know who are struggling with both parents working and taking care of their kids because the cost of daycare is so high, often times the wage of one parent alone is needed to cover that. There is one woman I know who after her second child, did the math, and figured out that the cost of sending two children to daycare barely leaves her anything from her salary. So she decided to stay home to raise the kids. Is she giving up her dreams? not really, because she is still doing smaller gigs on the side. But to her, it was more important to be able to raise her children herself than having to send them to daycare at the age of 1 and on and barely seeing them for a few hours a day.

While that's said, I've also seen a lot of (in my opinion at least) irresponsible mothers who seem to have it all on the outside - husband, kids, career, money, style/fashion. But they leave their children at home with a nanny and barely see them. I don't think that's good parenting, nor is it fair for the children. But at the same time, is this type of behavior linked back to the social notion of what women should have? and one of them being having children? Maybe these women just had children for the sake of having them.

And on the other hand, do you think that the more progressive view that every woman should have kids, family, career and all of that is also enforcing itself as an expectation? I think that women shouldn't be expected to either a) stay home and raise the kids and "give up their dreams" or b) have to "have it all". I think the true beauty of "freedom" is the freedom to choose, no mater what everyone else is doing.